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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:52 am 
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Michael Davenport wrote:
Sounds like you're having a lot of fun, which is exactly what it's all about :-)


I am! In fact, I'm quite happy each time I've got a guitar in my hands. The frustration only comes in the long term, when after months or years I realize I've gone nowhere. But since I've decided to start from scratch again, I'm feeling very optimistic right now.

I've found some good chords for the song, although I haven't finished working on them yet. I've been playing A-Bm-E, until it gets to A-F#m-Bm-E. At least, I think those may be the basic chords. I haven't found out whether there are sevenths and so yet. I can only hear one clearly: the second time he sings "my comPANION is the stars" a guitar's playing an Amaj7 (I think it's that one, I haven't got my guitar here to check whether that's the added note). I also believe that some times the chords are played higher in the fretboard than others, but I need more time to decide I cannot get anything better.

I don't want to get too obsessed with details, but even though copying a song exactly may not be an end in itself, I think it's a good training for the ear. And mine needs much training. It's something I've never really put my mind to, but it's high time I do so.

As for the sound of the solo, I did what you proposed, lots of reverb and a bit of overdrive, using the Bigsby just enough to make it noticeable, and I thought it sounded quite good. I meddled a bit with the knobs of the guitar and the amp, but I didn't reach any conclusion. I think I ended up using only the bridge pickup and any old equalization in the amp, but I cannot remember it clearly after so many combinations. I'm using a DeArmond T400 guitar (two 2K Alnico pickups) and a Peavey Vypyr 15 amp (although I've also got a Fender Frontman 15R amp and a cheap mongrel Squier Strat).

Heavy picks! That's yet another variable in the equation. How does that influence the sound? I thought it was more a matter of feeling comfortable with it. I always use a medium pick for electric guitar and a light pick for acoustic guitar, but I think I've got some heaver pick somewhere, so I'll try that. Playing close to the bridge is something I hadn't thought about. The only time I ever did so was in my first days of guitar playing, when I only had a Spanish guitar, to play the solo in the Beatles' "Nowhere Man". I found that playing very close to the bridge made it sound relatively close to the real thing.

Thanks a lot for bringing all of these things to my attention. It really makes me want to go and try all of that right now. I cannot wait till the weekend begins!

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 10:14 am 
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Thank you for your reply, Colombo.

I shall get back to you a little later/tomorrow on the subjects you mention as I've got to nip off now and do a few lessons.

I'll bet you ARE looking forward to this weekend's strumming...I know I am :D

Mx


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 8:58 am 
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After having devoted more time to trying to figure out what's going on in this song, I cannot add much more to what I already said. I've reached the conclusion that there are two rhythm guitars (electric or acoustic, I cannot tell), one to the left and another one I cannot hear so well to the right. I've been playing those rhythm chords as low as possible in the fretboard (is it said like that?). Then, I think that an electric guitar with lots of echo enters at "These many nights I've been banished here...", strumming once every chord. This is what I said the other day that sounded as chords in a higher position. The best option I've found is to play them all as barre chords whose highest notes are B-F#-G#-A. However, in the second instance of this bridge (or whatever it is), I cannot hear these high notes, so maybe the chords are like those in the other section. It is this second time when I hear the Amaj7 chord I spoke of, there and at the same point during the solo. I haven't been able to find any more notes differing those of the major and minor chords. As for the rest of the instrumentation, I've got a general idea of what the bass is doing (although I haven't tried to learn it... yet) and, as per "Lady's Bridge" booklet, the song's got percussion, bongos and snare drum. The snare drum is certainly there, but may God strike me dead if I've heard the bongos. And the only percussive sound I've noticed is a sort of creaky sound krrr-krrr-krrr a bit to the right (it may be there all the time, but I don't know).

Well, I don't know whether I've got it right or not, but what cannot be denied is that I've had a great time learning this. And so far I've done much better than I expected before I started. The solo sounds reasonably well, although I've had a look at the two videos I've been able to find in YouTube of this song being played live (both incomplete), and I see I'm not playing it exactly like Richard. Maybe it's not that important, but I'll try to copy exactly what he's doing, if only to practise a bit more. At this rate, I'll end up recording my version of the song (sans vocals -there are limits to my willingness to make a fool of myself)!

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:43 am 
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If Richard is right about what he says on page 10 of the thread about song chords (and he should be :roll:), I think I've got the chords right (excepting that perhaps I've missed some of the Amaj7 chords).

I thought that thread was only about chords, but I've seen in the first post that other stuff is also accepted. I'm not sure whether all my previous talk and questions belong here or there, but I think it's more a matter of learning how to listen to a song than of requesting riffs or chords, so I think we haven't gone off-topic after all.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 4:45 pm 
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Heya, Colombo :-)

Sorry, I didn't have much of a chance to reply over the weekend, but it looks like you enjoyed a very edifying weekend!

From what you're describing, you've done a marvellous job of dissecting Dark Road; the detail you've managed to glean from listening to the CD is far beyond what most people would hear or notice, and this ability is going to serve you well.

A little tip as regards working out chord 'flavours': I had no formal training, so all the chords in my vocabulary, certainly in my earlier years, were worked out by trail-and-error. Sometimes I'd come across a chord that didn't have the 'colour' of those being tried from the root note I'd ascertained it to have. What I'd do at this point would be to sing the 'alien' note and then try to re-voice the chord with it included. That's pretty much how I learnt all of the chords I know. This method also has a benefit in exercising your Musical Ear further, also allowing you to recognise the same voicings more readily when you hear them in other songs.

You're absolutely right about there being more that one rhythm guitar — there may be more than five…or ten (you'll need to ask Richard about this!), all judiciously mixed and adding a supporting-role to the depth of the sound. The higher inversions of the chords will be played either with barre-chords or by using a capo (one of my favourite tricks). If you have one, put it at the 2nd fret; now, while jamming along with the track, in place of the A play a G; replace F*m with Em; Bm with Am; and E with D. This isn't the only place on the neck where you can use this technique, either, and combining this with open-stringed chords, playing major chords against major 7th chords, and myriad other combinations, you can add a real wide-screen depth to a recording.

I wasn't familiar with your guitar, so I did a little Google — what a LOVELY instrument! And with the alnico pickups, too: wonderful! I also looked at the controls for the Vyper: seeing as it's a 'modelling' amp, being able to make a suggestion for settings is a little more vague, given each manufacturer's 'take' on what they 'think' a piece of vintage kit 'should' sound like. However, if you pick an old Fender-type setting (Dlx?), put the pre to around 1 o'clock, the bass to 3 o'clock, mid to 12 o'clock, and the treble to 2 o'clock, you should be in the right ball-park. Don't forget the reverb! On the guitar, select both pickups, set the volume on the bridge pickup to full and 'bleed' in the neck pickup just so you can hear it adding some 'weight'. One more thing: put the amp facing out of a corner; you'll achieve a more natural, pronounced bass without over-stressing the amp and speaker.

Having said all this, it's worth remembering that the original tones that Richard's basing his on were created on amps that only had a volume and tone control, and reverb was added by putting the amp at one end of a room and a microphone at the other. We're so lucky, these days…or are we?

Heavy picks: yes, I always use one of around a millimetre in thickness, usually made from nylon. The only time I use a light pick is when I specifically want the sound of one on an acoustic guitar. Other than that, I find that by changing how I hold the pick, I can alter its 'perceived weight'. The benefit of a thick plectrum is that you're not waiting that millisecond-or-two for it to finish flexing and pass over the string; this gives your playing an immediacy, and offers greater control of dynamics.

BUT, ALL of these things are down to personal preference — do it how YOU want to :-)

I hope these things help a little. Sorry if this message seems a little matter-of-fact — I wanted to get as much information across as my lame typing-skills and time would allow!

By the way, DO record your vocals!

Have fun :-)

Michael

PS: I'm sure we haven't gone off topic: this is all guitar related!


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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 8:58 am 
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Don't worry if you're not too prompt in answering; we all have lives outside the internet, and anyway the fact that I leave a message here doesn't mean I just sit and wait for an answer... I keep on playing anyway, so it's not wasted time, far from it. And I'm not likely to answer to any message like yours (that is, full of useful information) immediately, either: I must try everything first. so as to know what I'm talking about.

I already suspected that there were more than two rhythm guitars there. But I never thought they might be so many! I just hear distinctly two, to the far right and to the far left, but if there are more in between, they're too buried below the rest of instruments, at least for me to hear them. But your comments about the depth of a recording make me think that having all those guitar layers must give a different sound ambience to a background, even if one's not conscious of each of the separate tracks.

I've been playing the song using a capo as you suggested, and I can tell the difference with the other two options I had already tried. I mean, I notice that the chords don't sound the same in all cases, although that doesn't mean I'll be able to identify the inversion that is being played at a specific point in a song. As I said before, there are more things sounding at the same time than I can comprehend. So far the only 'trick' I use is trying to identify the highest note of the chord, since the lowest one is usually more difficult to hear, with the bass guitar and all that. It would be great to find some web site in the internet where I can practice this by listening just to one guitar; I mean, where I can listen to a random chord and be asked the right way to play it. The closest thing I've found is http://www.chordbook.com/guitarchords.php; the only drawback is that you know beforehand which chord you're trying to find, and that you must click the mouse with closed eyes so as not to know the inversion, too! But maybe I should learn to identify major, minor, seventh chords first, before attempting to find their inversions. In any case, as you say, it seems mainly a matter of trial by error.

I see I wasn't very far wrong when I decided to use only the bridge pickup when playing the solo guitar of "Dark Road". I've put that extra bass in by adding a bit of the neck pickup signal, and it sounds much better. It kind of gives more substance to the sound. What I haven't been able to test yet are the knob settings you suggested, because I haven't been able to find out which might be the best modelled amp to get the right sound (the manual doesn't help much when one knows as little about famous or obscure amps as I do - I mean, for example, "classic tweed type" means nothing to me). And one question about what you said about placing the amp facing out of a corner: why does that happen? Does it work if the amp has a back cover, as well as if it's open at the back?

I must try to play with a heavy pick and see how it feels, because the advantages you mention seem very sensible notions to me. I've certainly never used one as thick as one millimetre; at the beginning I used to cut them out of old credit cards, which are thinner, and I never felt comfortable with them. But then, I was playing almost exclusively rhythm guitar at the time, so perhaps those plectrums weren't the best idea. I'll buy myself a few new picks of several thickness and see which one works best for me.

I must admit I bought the DeArmond for its looks. Well, not exactly: I knew that many of the guitarists I liked used these Gretsch guitars with the f-holes, so I thought that a guitar of that type would be more or less suitable to play the kind of music I liked. I remember I searched for some information on alnico pickups, but I didn't reach any clear conclusion, so I finally decided to buy this one because it was affordable. And there weren't many guitars of this kind to choose among, anyway. I felt kind of guilty because I could have bought a cheaper beginner guitar, one of those Squier packs or the like. But I bought it and I've never looked back. I'm immensely happy with the DeArmond, which wasn't that expensive after all. I suppose it's a low-end guitar of its type, but I don't need more. It looks, feels and sounds great to me.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 7:32 pm 
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When some nine months ago I started learning to play the guitar again, I decided that I'd alternate three things: technique lessons using Mel Bay's method, trying to figure out how to copy songs by ear, and learning specific songs or techniques through YouTube or DVD video lessons (without necessarily devoting the same time to each of the three options, but doing what I felt like doing at each specific moment). I've gone through a long period of learning each of the exercises in Mel Bay's first book, and I've had a great time while doing so. But a few months ago I reached a plateau, and since I don't seem to be able to move forward right now, it's the moment to try the other two ideas.

Anyway, I just wanted to mention how a seemingly stupid thing may have someone wondering for a long time. I'm trying to figure out how long I should wear my guitar strap. I remember reading that a guitar should be hung so as to make it be in the same position as when playing while sitting. But if I do that, I feel as if it were a bow tie, not a guitar. I think it's easier to play it that way than when it's lower, but it looks daft. It's as if I had tied a stone around my neck and were about to jump off a bridge. And anyway, when I used to study while sitting, I was completely unable to play standing afterwards, no matter how high I hung the guitar (that's why I decided always to study standing from now on). I've tried to lower the guitar little by little, down to the point where my strumming hand is more or less in front of my navel. Which isn't way too low, is it? That's looks better, but playing seems to be rather more uncomfortable.

To the sensible question 'But what do you want, to play well, or to look cool?', I'd answer that I'd like some kind of compromise. I think music comes first, but if looks weren't important at all, we'd be all playing sitting with our left foot on a stool and a very tilted guitar with its lower bout between both of our legs, wouldn't we? (It seems to be the best way to reach easily distant points on the fretboard.)

For now, I've settled on the bow tie. But I was wondering whether the added inconvenience of lowering the guitar a bit is something that should be accepted as part of the learning process. If I were able to play well wearing my guitar high, but badly wearing it low, would it be a matter of always wearing it high, or of practising until I played it well wearing it low, too?

I know there needn't be a ready answer to all these musings. It all must depend on many factors (including one's height, arm length and hand span). But I'd be interested in knowing how you faced this issue when you first started to play the guitar. Or was it never a problem for any of you?

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 11:11 pm 
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Sadly for a fat balding 56 year old I still think cool is the priority - in my head I'm still 7 playing a cricket bat being Buddy Holly / George Harrison - this is probably why I reached my plateau years ago and am still having an ace time walking around the house strumming the same few chords and taking in the view.

I suppose it's a case of do what feels right to you and bollocks to everyone - fashion is for sheep.

I think I may have contradicted myself here...

Nah :eh?


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 11:15 pm 
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I think your interest in fashionable sheep should be just left in the field. :shock: :wink:

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 11:45 pm 
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Eoin wrote:
I think your interest in fashionable sheep should be just left in the field. :shock: :wink:



Yep - I meant to type baah at the end not nah...


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 2:42 am 
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I've found that I practice best if I'm sitting on a low stool. Being a bit short I find using a dining chair or whatever too high :oops: & I end up perched on the edge, hunched over the guitar. So I bought a drum stool, which is just right. Actually I'm just as comfortable sitting on the floor. As for looking cool, that wouldn't happen if I played in the fridge :roll:

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 10:00 am 
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Poppy Dog wrote:
Sadly for a fat balding 56 year old I still think cool is the priority - in my head I'm still 7 playing a cricket bat being Buddy Holly / George Harrison - this is probably why I reached my plateau years ago and am still having an ace time walking around the house strumming the same few chords and taking in the view.


Yes, I'm also sort of George Harrison, not in my head but in my general demeanour, though only in this pic:

Image

Luckily, there are limits to everything. In this case, it's my armpit. My guitar cannot get much higher than that (in fact, there was a time years ago when each time I played for one hour or so, my right hand got numb and my shoulders stiff, and then I realized that I was wearing my guitar so high that I was shrugging all the time).

All my life I've practiced while sitting on a chair, but hunching over the guitar and tilting it so as to see the fretboard. Afterwards I was unable to play standing the things I had learnt sitting. Even the simplest open chords came out wrong. Being realistic, I wonder whether I'll ever have the chance to play standing. I mean, why should I want to stand, only to play alone at home? That takes me back to the question whether some things are worth attempting or not.

Sitting on the floor... I don't think I could do that. Or maybe yes. What I wouldn't be able to do is getting back on my feet afterwards, so cramped I'd be.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:47 pm 
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Not only have I joined the forum this week I have also started to learn to play the guitar at the tender age of 41 after spending years being envious of anyone who could. Mr Hawley's recommended books have been ordered but I feel it may be some time before I can play along as well as sing along to his top tunes. This thread has given me some encouragement so hello to you all and thank you - Debbie :D

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 4:16 pm 
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What books have you ordered?


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:55 pm 
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Badgeman wrote:
What books have you ordered?

Mel Bray Guitar Method 1, 2 and 3. I think somewhere back in this thread they were recommended by the Boss

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